Official Luthiers Forum!

I recently ordered a maple LP top from one of our sponsors whom I had not previously done business with. The wood was nice, but not what I had in mind for the project. I emailed the merchant , asking if I could return it and trade for another item on his site. His reply was that after postage costs and his 15% restocking fee, I should "just keep it and order something else". Now, I don't usually let this type of thing bother me, but today it did. I have only had to return wood a few time in the past, and I don't remember paying anyone to restock anything . Am I being unreasonable in not wanting to do business with this person again?

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

If it was bought from a site where the sets are pictured, a restocking fee is quite reasonable assuming you got what you ordered. The price of the item isn't just for the wood, a good chunk of the price is sending it out.

If it's a site with no photos (just grades) then it's a lot more grey as to whether you should be expected to accept what's sent.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

If their site clearly states that they have a 15% restocking fee, then that was really your responsibility to find out and to make sure you were getting what you wanted before having it sent out.

If they don't state that on their site, then that's not a very good business practice.

As Bob said, if they show you pictures of the wood then you really should already know what you're getting, so a restocking fee is not out of the ordinary, however I still think it should be stated on their site that they charge a restocking fee.

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

Well I can understand a restock fee for a broom, a bucket, or a bag of nails, nothing subjective there, nails is nails and if you over ordered and want to do a return then 'yes', this was your error and as there is little markup in these generic consumables to begin with then a restock fee is completely appropriate and should be expected. However to charge such fee for something as subjective as tonewood seems completely over the top to me.

Even after factoring all cost and wastage due to sap, shakes and other unforeseen problems one may encounter in rough sawn boards, there's a fair whack of markup on the board foot price when you source and resaw timber. In order to justify that markup it is MHO that the vendor sometimes needs to take the good with the bad. If a customer orders wood by the 'set', then they are at the very end of the food chain in the tonewood game and are paying a hefty premium. Just as in any 'service' industry, this premium should afford the customer first class service and 'choice'. Images do not tell the whole story regardless of resolution. Sometimes, you just can't properly assess a set until it is in your hand. Just my opinion here but I feel that if you have paid a premium and you don't like what you got or it does not suit your intend purpose, then you should be entitled to return it ex postage cost to and from, no fees, no questions ask.

Cheers

Kim

Jon,

I would be upset about a restock fee myself. If I was a merchant here I would not charge one unless the person had a habit of ordering then returning for no good reason. As far as mailing cost I imagine you paid that up front and will not get it reimbursed. Also I would expect you to pay the return postage but once it is back in the vendors hands you should get full credit for the wood and any taxes paid. IMO

Joe

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

If I am not mistaken, the restocking fee is to prevent someone from buying multiple sets and then cherry picking only the best sets and sending back the rejects. Am I correct, Bob?

Thanks Kim, you expressed my thoughts exactly.

The top in question had a lot of subtle gray discoloration that would have been covered with a burst but would not have been acceptable under a clear finish, which is the plan for this project. There was no way to see this by a small photo on the merchant's site, which was accompanied by a blue ribbon "private stock" logo, indicating to me that the wood was premium quality. The price certainly suggested that it was.

From my standpoint , I have lost time on the deal. The project has been delayed while I search for a replacement, and I must assume the cost of repackaging and return postage. A traded replacement would be win-win: his idea of "keep something you don't want " is win-lose, with me on the short end.

I will revisit the site and look for the fine print, but I thought I was dealing with with a small personalized business, not a credit card or cell phone company.
(Yes, if I had ordered 50 tops and sent back 48, I would expect to compensate this person for their trouble)

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

Jon, I'm not in your shoes so I can't say what I'd do about the return. What I do when I feel I'm being "jerked around" is not buy anything else from that place. There's alot of places selling tonewood and supplies. I won't deal with one that has ticked me off.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

As a customer, I would expect to have to reimburse the vendor a S&H charge to get the set to me as well as accept the S&H cost to return it to him. Anything over and above, I would view as uncommon in our little universe. To me, it just seems like a common sense and practical solution to the issue and if his policies fly in the face of common sense, I'd either try to influence him or use a different vendor in the future...and let him know why.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Don't ask me, I'm not the wood vendor! Restocking fees in stores are usually to cover the fact that an item will often be worth less if returned after 90 days than it was when bought (ie: the vendor can no longer sell it at the previous price). In terms of wood sales, I think it's more like the non-refundable deposit on a custom guitar (ie: a wasted time fee).

THAT SAID: in this case it seems the vendor marked something that wasn't a premium item as a premium set. The OP said it was marked as top grade and then showed up and was discoloured. In this case, it doesn't sound like the vendor supplied the item advertised. False advertising is a separate issue altogether, but it's extra sketchy if they refuse returns on the falsely represented items.

THAT SAID: The vendor hasn't had a chance to defend themselves and, in being fair, right now it's one guy's word versus another's until we see some good photos!

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Please don't let anyone think I am suggesting that the seller was less than honest- in their opinion the wood may have been AAAA. Something like this is highly subjective.
I just wanted to see what some of the rest of you thought about the restocking fee policy.

Again, I am not challenging anyone's integrity. If my last post suggested that , I apologize

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

I can't see paying a restocking fee on wood or anything in our line. Because what is going to happen is just this. He's not going to buy anything again from them and not refer anyone to them. So for the cost of taking the top and putting it back on the shelf he is going to loose sales? And in todays market, well not a good idea. That's pretty bad custormer service. He could have said or should have said no problem if it was discolored. And if you aren't someone who is always returning things then well, we normally have a restock fee but I'll wave that and for a trade you will have to pay another S&H fee.
But then that's just me.

Exactly. If you feel in any way like you're not getting the customer service that you feel is rightfully desereved, it's your right to never do business with them again in the future as well as not recommend them to a friend. That's regardless of whether you're right or wrong. It's a personal decision. And if you are a rational person and feel that you are 100% right, no doubt about it. Make a video about your experience as the Gentleman did when United broke his guitar.

In my previous post I said that if they have fine print that says they charge a restocking fee, then it was probably your responsibility to notice that and to pay it if you ordered from them (From a legal standpoint). I still think that's true and I myself have had a moment before where the fine print got me and I felt like I had been violated, but regardless it was in the fine print. However, It sounds like you're asking opinions of a restocking fee, in which case I personally do not think that a restocking fee is fair unless like others have said, you are known for making many returns without reason. I think if I would have noticed that a certain vendor charges a restocking fee, I would either not order from them (like I try to purchase elsewhere before buying from Best Buy) or I would contact them before placing the order and find out as much as I could about the wood and let them know that if it's not as described I would expect them to waive the restocking fee.

Good luck. I hope you and the seller can come to some form of agreement to where each of you can feel like you got the best of the situation.

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

Hi folks!

I may not be posting much these days and of course I am no longer a moderator here either so my opinions as expressed here are exactly that - my opinions.

But I was lurking this morning and read this thread and it kind of felt.... well ugly or it felt as if it had the potential to be ugly. I have been on this forum for a long time now and I remember all too well how other threads that were essentially either a question about business practices where one could easily speculate who the vendor was/is or a direct attack on a vendor have a tendency to get ugly...

I also know that the OLF Code Of Conduct addresses situations such as these:

"7. Platform for Personal Attacks. The OLF is not a pulpit to punish suppliers who you feel have wronged you. This includes Ebay vendors. If you have a problem with a vendor or a purchase please take it up with them. This also goes for personal disputes; the OLF is not the place for such discussions."

Now Jon my friend this is not criticism of you directly but in all honesty your thread feels as if it is possibly intended to do more than simply asking what is the deal with a restocking fee... From your thread we know that the party in question is an OLF sponsor - this limits the guessing somewhat. Also from your thread we know that this OLF sponsor sells wood with terms such as "Blue ribbon - private stock." This limits the possibilities even more because one can now speculate that any OLF vendor with some kind of a private stock designation may or may not correctly or incorrectly be the party in question.

To my way of thinking this is exactly why using the OLF as a platform for disagreements with vendors is not advisable. Some of us may wrongly think that you mean one vendor in a very short list when you in fact are referring to another vendor.

Perhaps most importantly disputes always have multiple parties and the only way that the party in question may now defend themselves and represent themselves is to participate in this thread and perhaps disagree with you and your description of the events in question. If they willingly become a party to the dispute, the ugliness... on forum they have far more skin in the game here than anyone of us who do not have commercial concerns from the OLF.

I also wonder why this thread was permitted to go on as it has.

My recommendation is to take this matter up with the sponsor - I have never known any OLF sponsor to be unreasonable and in fact the contrary is true - every sponsor that I have ever dealt with went the extra 10 miles for me and without me even asking either!

Thanks and I hope that this gets worked out in a manner that is fair to all.

read your PM...there is one who has definitely gone south, but its not the one this thread talks about...

Agree with Hesh's advice to end this thread. Lesson learned- buyer beware.

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

Sorry but I don't see the issue with this thread, no vendor was named and vendor or not, if a business is charging this kind of fee then 'they' obviously believe their decision to do so is justifiable. (just for the record, the excuse "everyone else is doing it now" just does not cut it with me.) If the vendor does have a good case supporting the introduction of this charge then no one is preventing them from joining this discussion and presenting that advice here so we can all understand their point of view, therefore I cannot understand why there would be any objection to the open discussion about the legitimacy of such a practice.

I completely understand the importance of the vendors continued commitment to the OLF and always make a point of giving credit where due, but I personally don't see how this habit of 'cotton wooling' the sacred vendors against any topic 'perceived' as negative is constructive for anyone, and that includes vendors themselves. End of the day it is the vendors list who stand to take the most from a thread such as this as it gives them some very 'real' insight into how their clients view certain activities. IMO to suggest stifling such debate for fear of making waves only removes the point of this forum, if were gonna do that every-time, then we may as well just be content to entertain ourselves sitting here in front of our computers watching the various advertising banners cycle through the top of the page and applauding.

Cheers

Kim

I don't know, I don't think your question was pointing too many fingers. You simply asked for an opinion on restocking fees. I looked through the vendors above and couldn't figure out which it was by the description that you gave and that Hesh summarized. So maybe when next you ask such a question maybe just leave out any information that might highlight who it is. For me, I don't charge restocking fees. I have a hard enough time filling orders as it is so once the wood is back it is typically back out the door, but this VERY RARELY ever happens and has been pointed out by Kim, it isn't worth an unhappy customer for the extra few bucks.

Shane

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Canada

What Kim said. In addition, I should think that a vendor with such a policy has an opportunity to now see what customers and potential customers think of such a policy. And as Shane stated, there is no indication as to who the vendor is...and if so, so what. It's his policy and he should be able to defend it or abandon it.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

If we are allowed to praise a vendor for their fine customer service then we should be allowed to tell other members to be aware of bad customer service too. As a matter of fact if a vendor should start to get several complaints then it should be brought to the members attention. And perhaps staff should look into the matter to protect the members.

I'm with Hesh. A return doesn't only cost the person returning the product, but the vendor as well
and is a perfectly reasonable practice......whether stated ahead of time or not. I've paid them on
different occasions and have never had a problem with them. I have just always seen them as a small
investment in achieving the results that I'm looking for in the projects at hand.

I'm not clear on why it's being viewed as bad customer service. Just stock the top, buy another and
you'll be glad to have that wood on hand for your next project. I've had no trouble finding uses for
pieces that may not have fit the bill for the project they were originally purchased for. I love looking
at a full wood storage area.....and so do my customers when they want to see woods for their guitars.


Just my opinion,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

PM to Kevin

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

I have been in business awhile, usualy incidences like this arise from poor comunication,I think if the restocking fee policy is indicated CLEARLY on the web site,and it should be , it becomes the responsibilty of the buyer to accept these terms,which they inadvertantly did when making a purchase. if the policy is not clearly stated on the sellers website, the onus is upon the seller, i would wonder why the seller would not want to be upfront and forward about such a policy.
if the pictures did not clearly represent the product, or if certain defects were obscured by photography issues, the seller should make it right.if its a matter of the buyer realizing the product was not what they thought, or simply changing their mind about using it , its their loss.
Unfortunatly the web has become a "dumping ground' for many unscrupulous sellers dumping inferior , damaged,or poor quality goods on unsuspecting buyers,howevever blatant or clever ,who, most of the time, have no legal recourse after realizing they have been duped. any legitimate seller should make return policies absolutly clear on thier website.in fact it should be required to become a sponser of this site , considering this site is supposed to be more about brotherhood than commerce. Jody

A restocking fee must be clearly listed on the website in a return policy section. If not, its bad business IMO.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I just checked this vendor. Full refund is what is offered, on the website.
Since Jon simply asked about a restocking fee and didn't name the vendor, it's a good thread. Jon has a right to be upset because the vendor didn't do what he said he would. And of course, the vendor cannot speak in this thread himself stating his viewpoint without identifying himself. So these sorts of threads do tend to go South rather quickly.

I've dealt with the big guys and recommend LMI, Allied, and StewMac. Problems were always addressed well and handled quickly.

I priced a number of Koa sets from Steve at Colonial, but lost my patron. Steve worked hard to get me what I needed and sent pics / prices etc. I did buy one of his tee shirts and wear it often. Steve is a pleasure to deal with.

Bob Cefalu at RCTonewoods now there is a wood vendor ay? Who hasn't experienced the best there is buying from Bob. We even did some trading so I could get in on some quilted mahogany my son liked. Even if he didn't like what he got he never said a word? I've purchased a few other sets too and Bob is great. Now his whole clan is involved. Is there anyone who supported the OLF better? No way. Bob donated some wood for the OLF 2 Guitar as well. Bob, thanks.

Shane at High Mountain Tonewood, now here is a guy who knows spruce, specifically Lutz variant of Sitka and is it gorgeous. He's veered off into other avenues of luthier supply too. I got a set of his fret slotting blades for real precision. His Lutz is to die for.

John Griffin at http://www.adirondackspruce.com still sells really nice red spruce, last I checked. There isn't a nicer guy to deal with in the biz. John sent letters to me when I first started dealing with him, letters? Yep, letters. I visited his place one Spring Break in 2001 and had a great time. Filled the LeSabre with spruce tops and bracing. He even showed me a fiddle from the actual Little House on the Prarie while I was there.

So, we can develop real attachment to our vendors and have no problem recommending them to anyone interested in their products. Jon, don't let one experience with one vendor ruin your day. "This is not the vendor you are looking for, Move along", to quote a Star Wars line and mangle it. Grin. Hang in there Jon!

In 1975 I built a new house. Two windows were delivered while I was out and the glass was stressed on the double panes and cracked. They were scattered in a houseful of windows which were fine. I approached my lumber yard rep and told him of my dilemma. He immediately ordered me two more windows and replaced them. At that point, I showed him a clerical error he'd made on my invoice. He'd only charged me for one sheet of cabinet grade plywood instead of the seventeen he delivered. Business is a two way street.

Oops, wanted to mention John Hall at Bluescreek. John helped me wade through the details of importing rosewood from India. That's just the kind of guy he is. Didn't make a dime talking with me but he was still interested in the 110 set order we were making with suppliers in another country. What a deep inventory John offers and he got involved supplying a mold for a volunteer guitar effort on the OLF. Thanks Jon.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com